John Loeppky, Adriann Keve and Jose Morales discuss accessible customer service and share their personal stories and hopes for what customer service should look like.
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Community Perspective Panel
Transcript for Community Perspective Panel
(John Loeppky) Well, thank you so much, both to the panelists and those who are listening or watching at home for joining us for today's panel community conversation. I'm here with Jose and Adriann. Jose. I'll get you to begin by introducing yourself.
(Jose Morales) Thank you so much for the opportunity. My name is Jose Morales. I am ADA Manager for the Center for Independence. It's officially my job title. I also serve as the Chair of the Mayor's Disability Council and I am so glad to be here today in order to just bring up some things that I think I need to are more of a culture. We need to change. I want to speak about changing the culture and how people with disabilities as consumers are seen as or perceived as, and I think that's a great conversation that we need to have.
(John Loeppky) Thank you. Adriann?
(Adriann Keve) Thank you so much for asking me to be here today. My name is Adriann Keve. I am the President of the Foundation Fighting Blindness Jacksonville chapter. I also serve as a board member for the National Federation of the Blind of Florida Greater Jacksonville chapter, and I also serve as a member on the Jacksonville Transportation Advisory Committee. I am excited to be here today because I want to shine the spotlight on accessibility. I think it's so important. A lot of us really struggle when things are not accessible and we need to do what we can to change that, and I am glad to be here to be a part of that today.
(John Loeppky) Thank you so much. My name is John Loeppky. I'm a disabled journalist, writer and theater artist. So we'll start with one question. What is prioritizing the customer experience or customer service mean for you two through a disability lens?
(Jose Morales) For me, what it means is making sure that all the gaps are filled. What I mean is that what I would call a warm handoff. So if a person with a disability is getting a service and they're being referred to a different service, that's a different component of that service they're getting, is to make sure that that one accommodations are available, and then. two, for there to be a connectivity between each person, agency or whoever is delivering that service. I'll put a personal example, right? When I go to a doctor's office. When I get there, my doctor refers me.
They already know my accommodations. They, you know, my regular doctor already knows how I best consume their service. But when I'm referred to a new doctor, they'll give me material in small print. They will have a procedure in place to pre-book the appointments that make it difficult and make it a challenge for me to really be able to have that same experience. In that case, I don't have the same accommodations, meaning that I typically struggle and I have to pretty much be an advocate at that point and get somebody, a staff member, because usually I don't have the material in larger print or for whatever reason, sometimes they even have a hard time emailing it to me. So in that case, that warm handoff, that connectivity from service to service, I think is lacking and not just in that sector. This is one example I use. I think it's really important when we talk about just, you know, getting good service for any individual, disability or not, to feel welcome and to feel that they are treated fairly and with the same amount of care as any other consumer or any other client. And that's what it means to me is that whatever connectivity happens. It happens in my job. When I have to refer a person to another agency, I make sure that that email is sent to the new agency detailing the person's characteristics. Especially if the person is asking to get that warm handoff, to get that the same service they're getting used to getting at the other place.
(John Loeppky) Thank you, Jose. Same question to you, Adriann. What does prioritizing the customer service lens mean through through when we're looking at it through disability?
(Adriann Keve) Yeah, I think that we need to remember inclusivity, that we want to make sure that everyone is included, that we want to make sure that everybody's disabilities are considered when we're looking at accessibility. So we want to make sure that we have options for everyone so that everyone can go wherever they need and get what they need as a consumer.
(John Loeppky) When you're creating a space, whether it's in your work or your personal life to create that accessibility, what are some areas, whether it's disability specific or areas of accessibility that are often left behind or ignored?
I'll give an example that quite often where I live, physical disability, things where that disability is visibly obvious, shall we say, as opposed to invisible disabilities tend to happen a lot more than those that are less visible.
(Jose Morales) I think that example, if I jump in here, it would be for me when I'm using my cane. I can get accommodated much easier than in times where I'm not. At airports, for example, right? When I'm using my cane, I'm usually, it's a lot easier, even though there's some things we can talk about there.
You know how sometimes there's like sometimes there's more help than you need. Sometimes it's less help than you need. But the point is that when it's invisible and that when people are, you know, see a visible disability, they tend to at least, you know, acknowledge the fact of accommodations that need to be made.
But when I don't have that cane out or for whatever reason I'm being guide-sighted or, you know, someone like a friend or family member or whatever, then people don't give that same type of service. They don't. They don't provide the same accommodation.
They don't talk to your friend or whoever's guiding you or they'll talk. And by the way, my disability is, I'm legally blind. So I think that's a component of what we're talking about is you don't get that same type of accommodation.
You don't get that same kind of service.
(Adriann Keve) Yeah, I have had a lot of the same experiences that Jose has had because I'm also legally blind. You know, you hear a lot, you don't look blind and they think that you're lying, that you're making it up.
And you know, why would you make something like that? It's not making my life any easier. We're asking for what we need to be able to do what it is we're wanting to do. But then when you use your cane, you may get a little more help than you need.
You know, they'll show up at an airport wanting to put me in a wheelchair. You know, I've been sitting. I'd really rather walk. I don't need a wheelchair. I just need a guide. So, you know, it's really important to make sure that people know what we need and that we don't all necessarily need the same things.
(Jose Morales) And if I can add to that, I think like, for example, also it comes to how people perceive persons with disabilities. Like one time I was in, you know, I was ready to catch a flight.
I didn't have my cane out, already put in my bag because I was probably going to get, you know, assistance to the plane. They call the flight and usually they they say, you know, if you have a disability can go forward first.
It makes the whole process of boarding easier. And I would go up there and I've had instances where other people kind of judge you and kind of say, what? What is this person doing here? He seems fine. You know, he's standing, he looks, you know, six feet tall.
What? I mean, what's wrong with him? Kind of thing. And it puts you in the spot. And obviously, you know me, you know, being used to dealing with people and stuff. But I have no issue addressing that and advocating.
But I could understand why, you know, this creates a lot of, you know, a lot of people with disabilities trying to hide the disabilities. It's because they don't want to have to, you know, educate people in public. They don't want to have to be talking about a disability.
You know, every time they go to get a service. So that's I know there are like another thing I'll add to that conversation.
(John Loeppky) That brings up a question from you, Jose. You know, when you when you say there's sort of this focus on disclosure, what are some of those ways that that customer service places where customer service happens can decrease the amount of disclosure that's required in these spaces? If I may take your doctor's appointment example for previously, like you mentioned a warm handoff. What does that warm handoff look like in a way that doesn't feel exclusionary?
(Jose Morales) To me, it's pretty basic. Like if I go to get a service and it's kind of like custom made and it doesn't have to mean the service for anybody with disabilities really in general or anybody. We all have custom made things that we like as a customer, right?
Sometimes we like to arrive early to appointments and our, you know, there's times that, you know, depending on the service you're getting, you're able to kind of prearrange that. I don't think you need to change policies to make these changes.
I think it's more about the attitudes and about providing better service.
(John Loeppky) It's the getting away from the idea of sort of like we we create access only through formal means to more of a culture of accessibility, sort of what I'm hearing you say.
So those soft decisions are made by it's not, Oh, we have to go look at the rulebook. It's this is what our office has decided that's how we do things just in conversation between each other.
Adrian, if I can ask you sort of a version of the same question, what does decreasing the burden of disclosure or increasing access mean to you in a practical way, in whichever way you feel comfortable sharing.
(Adriann Keve) Each person with a disability is going to need something different. So I will need something different than what Jose will need, even though we're both legally blind. We're legally blind in different ways. I think it's important that businesses understand that not everything is going to work the same way just because a particular consumer is blind. That maybe they need to ask each consumer with a disability what it is that they need and how they can help.
Instead of possibly telling the consumer what they think will help them. Just say, you know, how can I help you? Is there anything that I can do to make the process easier for you? I think that would go a long way in improving accessibility.
(John Loeppky) You both sort of touched on the the structuredness and where accessibility and inclusion can fall down when it's all like, well, the rule says we do this, and therefore, I'm going to ask you a very invasive question, because that's what my rule book tells me to do.
I'm wondering, one of the things that we we bump into throughout North America, and this is where I say I am Canadian, is where legal requirements connect with actual real world experiences. And Jose, I'll come to you first.
Could you speak me through from your vantage point in your position where those legal requirements for accessibility intersect with customer service, in your view?
(Jose Morales) The ADA, which I consider the biggest legal, you know, policy that we have to to ensure equal access.
It's good in many ways, but it also puts strains sometimes on, for example, in business or when you're trying to deal with a company to just use best practices. They are very strict because they have to. With the ADA and with the questions they can ask in an interview.
And I think sometimes they block themselves into not getting to know their candidates for employment or into not knowing their consumers, sometimes, because they have to follow the ADA They have to not, they know that there's questions they can never ask, and that's great.
But at the same time, I think they go beyond and they never have personable relations with people because they're scared of violating the ADA. The input, so I think a lot of input, sometimes for consumers and for employees, doesn't get addressed because those questions that people are shying, you know, people shy away from those questions.
People shy away from even talking about the topic of disability or what works for each individual like we were talking earlier. It's a little bit of a, I don't know, a hot topic that people don't want to talk because they don't want to get burned.
So which is a great thing because it protects our, you know, dignity protects our our privacy. But at the same time, it also doesn't advance sometimes the conversation in some of the things we're talking about here because they're, you know, they're scared to get in trouble.
(John Loeppky) So so what I'm hearing is that you're talking about like the culture of fear when it comes to talking about accessibility. Where do you see that fear manifest within that customer service interaction?
(Adriann Keve) I was going to say that I think that sometimes people are even afraid to approach me in the store when I'm out by myself like they, they're afraid to ask or they're not sure what they can and cannot ask. So people don't usually come up to me and ask me if I need help. I usually need to find someone and try and get somebody to help.
And, you know, as a person with visual impairment, it's hard to maybe find someone who actually works there. I may or may not have gone up to somebody that doesn't actually work there before trying to find somebody that I can get assistance from.
And I think we just need to educate these businesses a little better and let them know that it is okay to just go up to a disabled person and say, you know, how can I help you? Is there something I can help you with?
Do you need any help? Maybe they don't need any help, but you know, maybe they do, and it doesn't hurt to just ask them what they might need.
(John Loeppky) Somebody, you know, gets up the courage to ask me if I need help.
And then I say no. And then they say, Are you sure? And then try to help me in ways that are radically unhelpful. In that respect, what the customer is saying that they want and respecting that autonomy, even if even if the other person, even if the person providing the customer services.
I've had this from other folks in wheelchairs, you know, like these presumptions happen across across disability lines.
(Jose Morales) It's all about consumer choice. And I think because all those factors we talked about consumer choice is not addressed. I'll put a personal example with what we're talking about.
I've had times where I asked for help on a certain store or at a restaurant, and I've had employees. They're scared to interact with me and they go ask another employee or they'll go get the manager when it just requires a simple step or vice versa, like you're saying, like they're offering too much assistance.
When you really didn't ask for that, you just asked for a can you tell me what the Tylenol is or whatever?
(John Loeppky) One of the things that got talked a lot about in the presentations that we watched prior to this panel was about and some of the writing that is on Accessibility.com about the market that disabled people encompass. And so one of the things that I'm curious about is when you're talking about sort of the the buying power of the disability community or disability in that sort of commerce way. Is there a fact or figure that you really you really lean towards?
Is there a certain area of that sort of market that that really drives your point home when you are working for nonprofits or ADA Centers or however you are in the world?
Definitely use it more of a in advocacy with governments, right?
(Jose Morales) Providing that number of people with disabilities, their tax, how much they're paying in taxes. Their input into that, like how much money they're putting in in the community. Just by, you know, living independently instead of being in some group home or in some institution.
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but there's a huge benefit for full inclusion. And one of the areas that we probably use the most as persons with disabilities, which is health care, there's not a emphasis on consumer choice. That kind of like sometimes kind of gets me thinking, you know, one of the areas that we probably influence the most with our market value, or our market input doesn't consider how valuable of consumers we are. So definitely a lot of work that needs to be done in that in that area, in my opinion.
But for example, I'll say to people, listen, you want me living in your community because I, you know, I pay so much in transportation, I pay so much in, you know, all the things I use.. I pay extra to get my, you know, my my groceries delivered.
(john Loeppky) And when you're talking about taxes that that age old perception, maybe it's not true in Jacksonville. I'm sure it is. But this perception that we get, sometimes it's like, oh, you're disabled, so you don't pay tax. And you're like,
well, actually, I hate to break it to folks, but we are part of the economy, too. I'm wondering where what thoughts you have on on the same topic about facts or or sort of market related points of view.
(Adriann Keve) So one of the figures that was mentioned in the earlier presentations, you know, the number of disabled people that there are in the world, you know, over a billion. And then you add in these friends and family of these disabled people, that's a huge chunk of the market that you can really focus on.
And you're you're leaving it on the table if you don't address these issues. It's not difficult to make some of these changes to showcase your inclusivity. I think it would be nothing but beneficial to make these changes. You know, they may benefit people in ways that they are expecting outside of just, you know, increasing business.
You can look at things like curb cuts for sidewalks. You know, they were for people in wheelchairs, but you know, people who are riding bicycles use them, people who are pushing strollers, kids with strollers. You know, there's all these extra benefits that you didn't consider before that could very well happen with inclusivity changes for the consumers.
(John Loeppky) Thanks, Adrian. One of the things that that you say that brings forward for me is the like, the shortened. I'm sure there's a technical term for it under the ADA, but I have long since forgotten it.
But where there may be, you know, if there's a bank counter or something, it's all the majority of it is that sort of an able-bodied height and then it might drop down. So there's a spot for somebody who uses a wheelchair.
But it always strikes me the number of people that I see in those sorts of spaces using that may not be people who would sort of conventionally, let's say, identify as disabled. Maybe an older person who still has perceptions of disability that are rooted in not independent living in some ways or some of these other community engaged things. But but they are still, you know, they are using that because that's what's accessible to them. Yes, Jose.
(Jose Morales) It's it's great that you bring that up because here in Jacksonville, for example, we're advocating for just more access in general in all those things, it actually brings, we're a big military town.
And what ended up happening as a result of us becoming more accessible, even though we still have a way to go, brought the military, not just the veterans with disabilities, but also families of people with military, a family of military with kids with disabilities to come into Jacksonville.
And choose Jacksonville over other towns because it was already kind of set there. Those programs were already created there and make the transition if they had a child with a disability or if they were later on a veteran with disability to be stationed in a military town with all the benefits of the military, but at the same time, have an accessible city and have a lot of programs that are tailored the disability community. So, and back to the airport example. The reason why airports are so successful, I don't know if is a study, but there was research about it, is because of how accessible it is for everyone to use it. The foot traffic it generates, the easiness. The easier things are to use and the more accessible it is, the general. I mean, the iPhone. All those examples are examples of just things that are thought of in an accessible way bring more business, more foot traffic, better consumer experience.
(John Loeppky) Mm-Hmm. And I think airports are a really interesting microcosm of this because like you said, Jose, you have those sort of the benefits of accessibility and then you have things like... Sometimes you have areas of airports where like radical inaccessibility in terms of transportive wheelchairs or areas of airports that were really... There was one here in one of the major airports in Canada here, the baggage claim is carpeted, which moving wheelchairs through is not my favorite thing in the world. Like, we don't think about it. In the Denver airport to get between two different terminals.
And I'm not speaking ill of the Denver airport because I am very glad of that space and what it represents because it's talking about, if I remember correctly, connections to Indigenous Culture. That ramp is exceedingly high and difficult to get around from a from a wheelchair user perspective.
And I think that that sort of I guess it's a microcosm is really interesting. You know, one of the things that comes up about customer service, we're so often talking about customer service from a, the lens of somebody speaking to a disabled person, but what do you think the value or the importance is of having disabled people in these customer service roles themselves?
(Adriann Keve) It's always nice as a disabled person myself to go to a store and see that they do practice inclusive hiring, even if they are not blind, even if they don't have the same disability as me.
It's good to know that they clearly have considered this in the hiring process and that they haven't let it kind of scare them off, potentially, from hiring a disabled person. And that is something that I know that I notice.
And it definitely makes me more likely to return to that business knowing that they are treating disabled community the same way that they're treating the non-disabled community. Giving us jobs and letting us come in and work just like, just like the non-disabled people.
(John Loeppky) I always find that often, though not always, the staff with a disability is particularly visible ones, because again, it's my bias, that they're the folks that will come up to you and say, I know that little corner in our store's inaccessible, but this is the workaround. Or, you know, let me just grab that door for you without even even thinking about it.
(Adriann Keve) Yeah, for sure.
(John Loeppky) Yeah, I'm curious, Jose, from from your perspective, what the value is, what the value-add is, I guess, if we're using business terms, to having disabled people not only as customers but as the people providing that customer service.
(Jose Morales) I think it goes to representation. 20% of the population in the US,
I imagine it's the same in the whole North American continent, is, you know, has a disability. And I think we want to see that show and be inclusive in our businesses and with the people that we are getting service from and from, you know, us as consumers.
So I think if we're if we're like, we're already kind of talked about our impact economically and our, you know, what we bring to as the market value perspective. So I think that it is warranted, that, you know, businesses strive to also be representative of that consumer base.
(John Loeppky) And then I am going to I'm going to throw a wrench in the works with my last question, maybe a little bit. Which is, you know, a lot of the time when we're talking about employment and like we have here or customer service, that that tends to get a lot of play.
It gets to have a lot of discussion. And I'm curious how we how we balance conversations about disability in the market with the sort of real world concerns that have nothing to do with employment within our disability communities.
First, Adriann, to just ask, you know, how do you feel we balance through the employment aspect as part of, you know, the independent living movement and also how we frame lots of these conversations about customer service, while also acknowledging sort of the humanity of the person in front of us outside of their role and work?
(Adriann Keve) I think that does happen often when people are looking at consumers, they're not considering the fact that they're people and it's not just in the disability community. You know, I think that there is a lot that's lost when when that happens, a lot of customer loyalty, I think, comes from when someone feels connected to to a business, you know, for for a whole bunch of different reasons, whether it's inclusivity or sustainable practices that that business does. You know, it's it's really important to look at all sorts of different things that you need to consider, not just disability, when trying to to grow and maintain your customer base, you want to make sure that you're connecting with the people and that's what's going to bring your customers back again and again.
(john Loeppky) And if I may ask and feel free to say no, you know, you mentioned that one of the things that that sort of impacts your customer loyalty is when you see disabled folks in these work positions.
Are there other things in this vein that really link you to those businesses when it comes to wanting to return as a as a consumer?
(Adriann Keve) Yeah, I think it's important to have as a business to have things that you focus on, things that you want to support.
So for me, it is disability inclusion and I am very interested in sustainability as well. So when I see businesses showcasing these things, I do notice and it's going to get me coming back, it's going to keep me interested, I guess, in what the business is doing, whether I'm looking for something to purchase or not. I will recommend that business to to my friends, to my family. It's just customer service is so important. I think it's it's really overlooked these days a lot more than than it used to be because there are so many options.
So I think that if we can get people back to realizing that we're all just people wanting to spend our money on their stuff, I think we would be a lot better off.
(John Loeppky) So same question to you, Jose.
How do we balance sort of, we often get, as we've said, get tied into this disability and employment and work and the business sphere and capitalism more generally if we want to go there? How do you feel we balance that with the, you know, the person outside of that sort of moneymaking landscape?
(jose Morales) Just see disability as as a checkmark that they have to check, but to see them, as you know, regular individuals. We're all different types, different spectrums, different buying patterns and just focus on the consumer choice. Let's see. I just bring a personal example.
I'm more inclined to go to a place that's going to give me different options. In fact, one thing that I really like about a business is, for example, I'm a Goalball player, which is an adaptive sport, and I go to a sporting store to buy equipment for my sport.
I prefer the business that's going to be honest with me, and is going to tell me what are my best alternatives. Because some of the things I use, some of the equipment I use is not always in regular areas, is not always in all types of sports that they usually sell the store.
And I have to be a little creative. I appreciate when I bring this up to a sporting store, when they are telling me, you know, we don't have that product, but if you go to this other store, there's, you know, there's going to be or you could, you know, there's just the three alternatives you have.
You don't have to go with what we currently have. Giving people choice is eventually what equals out the playing field and consumer customer service. It's all about choice.
(John Loeppky) Adriann, and I'll perhaps end on this. You'd also mentioned about consumer choice. Jose had mentioned sort of the medical field and the sporting field.
Where's a place where you feel that that choice could be, if we're going to generalize an industry, where choice could be increased when it comes to accessibility or intersections with sort of a disabled paying base?
(Adriann Keve) I know you mentioned specific industries, but I was hoping that I would maybe be able to mention a certain platform.
We have talked a lot about experience in brick and mortar stores, I think, and we haven't really addressed the inaccessibility of websites, especially for people who are blind and low vision. 113 million Americans use the internet and 81% of them use the internet every day, you know, and that's that's a lot of people right there.
And if you think one in four people are disabled, so a lot of that type of people that are using the internet are disabled. And so I think that is something that really should not be overlooked when a business is considering accessibility.
I heard a statistic recently that 98% of websites have at least one accessibility issue in it. That's a big problem. I'm not going to be able to get what I need. I heard a story today, actually, that a colleague of mine who is blind has to have his daughter help him pay his rent because there is one little checkbox that he can't get his screen reader to check for it. Everybody has a website now. If you have a business, you have a website. So businesses need to consider these things when they're building their websites, when they're updating their websites.
And I think that would that would go a long way to reach out to especially the blind community and think of all that revenue that you're not getting because we aren't able to use those websites.
(John Loeppky) I was reading a statistic recently about how low comparatively internet access is for disabled folks because of income barriers and these other intersections. So that a Zoom meeting like we're having today to host this panel becomes radically more difficult if I'm the moderator and my Internet connection is stuttering, for example. Thanks so much for bringing up that digital element. Jose, within that as it's been brought up within that digital element are there particular, you know, examples or experiences where, we mentioned screen readers, but anything that you've bumped into in that realm that you'd want to speak on?
(Jose Morales) Absolutely. Sometimes when you're using rideshares, for example. Sure, some elements I'll say a lot of elements are accessible, but in times, typically when something happens across across platforms, it's really difficult to get customer service. Talk about disclosure. You pretty much have to tell them your whole life to get the service, to get them to understand the situation. I was with a group of friends in DC. You know, we put a note to the driver that there was a service animal with us, with a group of us, you know, rideshares, sometimes, you know, leave their customers because they, you know, perceive service animals an issue, for example. So and so I'm really glad that Adriann brought the digital component because it's so true. You know, a lot of times when we talk about customer service, to get this digital service we don't have a phone line or they don't have other ways of communications besides email. It's really challenging to to really I mean, you pretty much have to to get them to understand your customer service concern or issue. And that that's that's a huge thing. I think we're going to have to fight for and in the coming years. Technology is great in some ways. If they're not, accessibility is not thought about for all disability types, then it's obviously a big gap that's missed in the customer service experience.
(John Loeppky) You know, we saw this recently and this is not my community, so I'm not trying to speak on behalf of anybody if there's anybody deaf or hard of hearing.
But we saw where we're speaking here, you know, a few days after the Super Bowl. So apologies for any Bengals fans. But you know, there was this big sort of, I would say, big performative thing around how accessible... There was going to be a deaf rappers and a bunch of, you know, the ASL interpretation and all of those things. And then somebody stood in front of the camera for the ASL person and they put the deaf rappers on a separate feed. And it feels like a lot of what you're talking about Jose and Adriann, is this culture of fear or this other the opposite end of that of wanting to say, look how much we're doing without the real world connection of thinking through. Like, What does that mean? Like you said at the beginning of this conversation, Jose, about a warm handoff. What does that mean when you're in space in a store and looking to buy things? Then we'll end on this question.
And it may be the most stereotypical of moderator questions ever. But it is... If you could change one thing about accessibility and customer service, what would it be?
(Adriann Keve) You know, the one thing that I would change would be the way that businesses look at accessibility. That I want them to consider it from the beginning, from the ground up instead of something as an afterthought to kind of patch things up to get by. It's important to consider these things because it's so much easier to do it from the beginning than to go back and to fix something.
And if we just change the way that we think about accessibility just a little bit, it's going to make things so much easier. We're going to be able to reach so many more people. And, you know, it's just going to improve the lives of a lot of people and it'll be good for business.
Simple as that, it's good for business to be inclusive.
(John Loeppky) How about you, Jose?
(Jose Morales) I think for me, one thing I would I would want to change. Consumer choice gets addressed. Not one standard or not one method for all disabilities works.
We all have different needs and we all have different wants and ways of doing things, and there's no standard way. We've talked a lot about that throughout our discussion, but really is that focus on consumer choice and at the end that's really making things equitable for all persons. People with disabilities are not.
(John Loeppky) Thank you.