On Demand: Mobile Applications and Kiosk Accessibility Services

Computer Voice

The event will begin promptly at 1 p.m. Eastern time.

The event will begin promptly at 1 p.m. Eastern time.

The event will begin promptly at 1 p.m. Eastern time.

The event will begin promptly at 1 p.m. Eastern time.

The event will begin promptly at 1 p.m. Eastern time.

The event will begin promptly at 1 p.m. Eastern time.

The event will begin promptly at 1 p.m. Eastern Time.

Lori Litz

Good day, everyone, and welcome to today's Accessibility.com event, “Mobile Application and Kiosk Accessibility Services.” My name is Lori, and I'm the Director of Conferences here at Accessibility.com. We'’re absolutely thrilled to have you back again for the third time this month. This is our third event this month. The first one being on small to medium businesses, accessibility services, accessibility services for enterprises, and then, as I mentioned, today is obile application and kiosk accessibility services. If you missed the previous two events this month or any events that we've held in the past, if you head out to Accessibility.com/events and, scroll down to past events, you can locate those events and the on demand recording. We are thrilled to have with us here today our friend Casey Naiduk.

He's the Senior Manager of Digital Accessibility at Bristol Myers Squibb. We'll also have with us today Travis Franklin, the Head of Marketing at QualityLogic. QualityLogic is today's sponsor. Our first portion of today's event is a discussion between our president, Mark Shapiro, and Casey. And then we'll do a deep dive into QualityLogic, with Mark interviewing Travis.

And then we'll do questions and answers from the audience. If you could go ahead and type your questions into the Q&A section and leave the chat open for conversing amongst yourselves and doing a little networking, that would be fantastic. The panelists are looking in the Q&A section for those questions. Today's event will - is recorded and, will be available this evening.

I will email out to you instructions on how to access the recordings once they are available. We also do have the Expo hall open today, and QualityLogic is out there. If you'd like to stop by their booth to learn more about the accessibility services they offer for mobile apps and kiosks. And, without further ado, I am going to turn this over to Mark and Casey.

Mark Shapiro

We are pleased to have with us Casey Naiduk. Casey is a UX and digital accessibility expert with extensive experience with mobile apps and kiosks. He's worked with many companies including Oracle, Wells Fargo, Bristol Myers Squibb. Casey, thanks for being here with us today.

Casey Naiduk

Oh, yes, it’s my pleasure. Always a good time. Thanks for having me, Mark.

Mark Shapiro

So first, first of all, what responsibilities do mobile app and kiosk developers have concerning digital accessibility?

Casey Naiduk

Well.

In some way they have the very same responsibilities as any digital, any digital asset or platform. So think of something like a website. So just as the ADA covers, and the Department of Justice has confirmed this over the course of decades, but doubled down on it more recently. Just as the ADA covers digital spaces like websites, it also extends to, you know, anything that the public can use and benefit from. They need to not be excluded from doing that on the basis of of their disability. So, in short, their responsibility is to make it accessible. There can be flexibility in exactly how that's achieved, but it has to be equally usable for people with disabilities.

Now, kiosks are interesting because, unlike a website, unlike a mobile application, kiosks exist in the real physical world, right? So there can also be physical accessibility considerations that kind of have to work in tandem with with digital accessibility in this case.

Mark Shapiro

Do the skills differ from somebody who might be an expert in testing a website? Does it carry over to mobile apps and kiosks?

Casey Naiduk

Well, that's a great question. And it's...

The short answer is that the things you're looking for tend to be the same, right? You want a digital interface that is perceivable, operable, understandable, robust, right? Just like you want in the web space. But the skills for testing and especially the skills for development, those may not necessarily transfer over. In fact, I've known countless accessibility professionals who are very good at what they do, who who don't touch mobile testing and who would not, would not necessarily know the first thing about approaching kiosk testing.

There can be specialized gestures, there can be different technologies used. Things like just a difference in screen sizes, right? There can be factors that make it a specialized skill. So in theory, you're looking for a lot of the same things. But, no, I would say that no, it's not a fair statement to say that somebody who's skilled in one area of digital accessibility is necessarily qualified to assist with mobile or kiosk.

Mark Shapiro

In terms of the laws, do those same laws apply to mobile apps and kiosks as to websites? Or are there any sort of differences between them?

Casey Naiduk

Well, there's overlap for sure. So the ADA, depending on the entity who who owns and is accountable for that app or kiosk, the ADA could certainly apply. Especially recently, right? A couple months ago, we got, you know, the formal technical specifications for Title II under the ADA. So if you’re a state or local government, public school, that kind of thing, certainly the ADA would extend to any of your digital spaces like apps or kiosks.

But kiosks are interesting because, again, like I said, they exist in the physical world. So you might have additional laws covering that. Right? So if you have federal laws that cover airlines for example, they commonly have kiosks. If you, right? Depending on the space or industry you’re in, you may have additional regulations. The good thing is, or the easy thing is they all boil down to the same kind of guiding charter, which is make them accessible and you're okay.

Mark Shapiro

So if I'm looking for a vendor, what should I keep in mind in terms of, you know, the specifics for mobile apps and kiosks.

Casey Naiduk

From a testing perspective?

Mark Shapiro

Yeah, from a testing perspective.

Casey Naiduk

Well, you'd want, you'd want a track record. You want proven experience in it. And, you know, like I stated, it's really not the case that all accessibility experts or vendors are equally equipped to assist in that area. For a mobile application, depending on, you know, which platform or operating system it's on, if we're talking about a truly native mobile app, you'd want to make sure that they have, you know, expertise in that area. If it's on iOS, Android, something else.

And and same with kiosks, I would say.

Mark Shapiro

How have you seen companies charging for these types of services?

Casey Naiduk

It's always tough as so I don't provide these services. And it's always tough to try to speak on behalf of those who do, because it can it can vary tremendously. Some of them are retainer or subscription, you know, or yearly based. Some of them are hey, we've got one mobile app we need tested and they can kind of step in and do that.

And that might, I mean, that might run you anywhere from $5 or $10,000 to much more, depending on the complexity of the use. Things like that. So it's it does it does vary. Generally, the more you want tested in terms of scope, screens, device types, and the complexity, you know, of what's being tested, generally that will increase cost.

Mark Shapiro

To give us an idea of budget, let's say that an airline has kiosks at airports throughout the world. What should they budget for testing those kiosks?

Casey Naiduk

For testing those kiosks. And they're in a real life setting or? Yeah? It's it's tough to say, but, when you're testing a kiosk and that exists in the physical space, right? It's, it's it's truly a combination of digital and physical accessibility. So that will involve most likely flying somebody out there to test it. Right?

Perhaps paying for a stay, depending on the, you know, the extent of the testing that's needed. You know, it could it could involve some specialized technology. All of those things would increase costs. So I would guess, I would guess I've, you know, I would guess that could start at the lower end of $10, $15, $20,000.

But all of those factors that I mentioned could, I would say could easily double, triple that, potentially into the hundreds of thousands, depending on the type, nature and volume of what's being tested.

Mark Shapiro

Casey. Thank you. This has been very helpful.

Casey Naiduk

Oh, sure. Thanks. My pleasure.

Mark Shapiro

We're pleased to have with us Travis Franklin, who is the Head of Marketing at QualityLogic. Travis, thanks for allowing us to dig into your accessibility services offering.

Travis Franklin

Yeah. Thank you.

Mark Shapiro

To start with, can you tell us about your company and the solutions that you have?

Travis Franklin

Sure. So kind of just a little background on us.

So we're a digital accessibility and quality assurance firm. We've been supporting customers since the late 80s. And roughly 200 full time employees. There's many technology first companies in the market, but our specialty is in delivering accessibility services like the testing, screening, consultation and then helping clients really address those accessibility needs holistically. It's also core to our offering that we include individuals that have impairments, as a key part of the test teams. Because we really believe you can't build an accessibility program without including the individuals who most benefit from accessibility practices.

Mark Shapiro

All right. Who do you see as your ideal customer? Is there a specific industry or size of company that is your ideal?

Travis Franklin

Sure. You know, size of company?

We help every different size. You know, from startups to some Fortune 500 companies. We are best placed to help clients who desire turnkey accessibility support, where they're looking for a partner that will, that can tailor their services to fit the client's needs. And also that they don't want to be locked into an annual contract. We've also found it's really helpful if someone is looking for both strategy and implementation. So we can help, you know, clients across industry. And, you know, those that have. But we have personally deep experience in healthcare, finance, education, job seeking and other areas.

And then across technology, we support web, mobile, desktop, COTS solutions, IoT technology and more.

Mark Shapiro

How long does it typically take a customer, in your experience to become accessible?

Travis Franklin

It really depends on the complexity of the properties, what investment the customer wants to make. You know, if they're leveraging our full or for our full testing and remediation support capabilities, with a smaller footprint, accessibility can be really quick.

Enterprise organizations with multiple applications, you know, legacy technology, maybe a decentralized process or other aspects can increase that time window. And then, you know, depending again on that complexity, it can require additional thought and planning. Oftentimes that can be a multi-month or depending, you know, in some cases, it could be a multi-year effort depending on how many changes are happening, etc.

That's where we end up focusing on our high areas of impact, implementing best practices to ensure new digital properties are being released, that are being released, are accessible. And then we kind of work through the backlog.

Mark Shapiro

Okay. What's your entry price for your services?

Travis Franklin

You know, we really work with clients on their budget. We listen to what their, what they need and then figure out how we can make the greatest impact possible with the investment that they're able to make.

That can be as low as $5 to $10,000 to support initial services and auditing. And then for other enterprise clients we've supported in engagements in the hundreds of thousands or more, where we provide like a fully dedicated accessibility team. 1% of revenue is usually a good benchmark for figuring out accessibility investment. But whatever it is, you know, we work with our clients based on where they're at.

Mark Shapiro

What sets you apart from your competitors?

Travis Franklin

We built our original practice delivering quality assurance services and then began our accessibility practice when our Director of Engineering went blind over a decade ago. We really wanted to take his perceived, you know, disability and turn it into a way to help others. So not only do we have deep care for our customers in the mission, but we bring decades of engineering experience and expertise that many of our competitors don't. You know, beyond that, we specialize in services and and consulting, rather than putting a large technology platform at the center. And our focus is always customers first, not owners contracts. You know, we have full flexibility. And then we start with our customer and build plans around what the unique needs to help them succeed.

Mark Shapiro

Great. Travis. Thank you. Appreciate the the deep dive into your company.

Travis Franklin

My pleasure.

Mark Shapiro

I'm now going to go on to the, answer some of the questions that are coming through. So first question that's coming through. What is the most common accessibility issue found with mobile applications? Casey, you want to take this?

Casey Naiduk

Sure. Well, I guess offhand, I don't know what is the most common. But I can give you a few that typically stick out to me. Number one, you know, the most common accessibility issue in general, is usually related to color contrast, or text alternatives. And that would apply, you know, that would extend to mobile applications as well.

So you would commonly have issues of colors that, you know, do not have stark enough contrast to be visible by most people. You would commonly have images that do not have text alternatives available to people who might use assistive technologies like a screen reader. In addition to that, something that I commonly see, is either the inability to...

So when you're using a screen reader on a mobile device, you'll commonly use what's called swipes or swipe gestures, which can be the equivalent of using like a tab key on a keyboard Mark. And so commonly what we'll find are that interactive elements that you would need to provide input on or activate a button, a menu, a form field, that those either cannot be reached by that swipe gesture, which makes them at that point entirely unusable for somebody.

Or a lot of times they may be reachable, but they won't show a visible focus indication to let you know where it is. And depending on how you're accessing it, that can actually matter in the mobile space, even though it's often overlooked. Whereas keyboard accessibility on a mobile application does apply, should be tested. That would be my recommendation anyway.

But commonly, commonly skipped. There's a belief that keyboards are not. There's a belief by some, I think maybe by many, that keyboards are not used on mobile devices. My recommendation to anybody looking for a mobile app testing would be scope in keyboard functionality testing and ensure you get that right.

Mark Shapiro

Do the rules for color contrast differ from a phone versus a website? Casey?

Casey Naiduk

They do not. The way you test them might differ. And so, on any digital screen, assuming that the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are your target conformance standard, which if you're watching this, most likely they are or will be. So you've got to meet the same color contrast ratio. So 4.5 to 1 for most text, 3 to 1 for large text and 3 to 1 for meaningful, user interface elements.

That doesn't change based on device type, screen size, anything like that. However, you may find far fewer tools, you know, available for testing on mobile. And so, you know, it's not uncommon to, to, to have people provide workarounds like taking a screenshot and then moving that over to a desktop to pull color codes, or having to go back to design files, or the people who provided, you know, who actually built that app to say, hey, what are the color codes here?

Like the hex numbers? What are the color codes here? So you can confirm the contrast. But no, the rules are the same.

Mark Shapiro

What is the minimum acceptable level of accessibility? Who determines it and how is it measured? Travis, you want to take this one?

Travis Franklin

Sure. You know, I think that's a little bit of a misleading question, simply because I think accessibility work is never truly over. You know, you don't stop trying to improve your customer experience, product quality, taking care of your employees, etc.

Accessibility’s like that. But there are important milestones along the way. You know, the first is definitely getting compliant to a technical standard. We really focus on WCAG and we recommend WCAG 2.2 AA, as it's the most current industry standard. Companies also want to take into account local legislation wherever they're based. But mostly that points back to the WCAG.

That's measured in, you know, whether you want to comply or not, whether various success criteria in WCAG is supported. You know, being compliant isn't being accessible. You, you know, we we talk about this a lot. You can still produce an experience that is compliant but challenging for assistive technology users. There's a lot of tools out there that, you know, they become compliant, but then when the user actually tests it out, it is is almost worse of an experience.

It's also important to consider how you're arriving at accessibility and build, you know, the development etcetera, into the process so you can deliver a better accessible experience quickly and then ultimately more cost effectively. That's the scalability and the shifting left of accessibility. And is measured in terms of cost and development velocity. I, you know, from there, I think you're also always learning about human experience and making improvements as you go along.

Standards evolves, laws evolve. And so then how we approach our work evolves.

Mark Shapiro

Testing a mobile application on on Apple devices, would you need to test on all the different versions of the Apple devices? Casey?

Casey Naiduk

In my opinion, there's not really a a definitive or, you know, agreeable answer here. Where I think if you asked five people, you'd get five different answers. From my perspective, you typically want to support, you know, the most current device type and then maybe going back a few models since that's what the majority of people are using.

And that's what you can reliably kind of remediate for anyway. And what I mean by that, is let's say you discovered issue where, you know, something's working great on iPhone 13, 14, 15. I think they're up to 15, right? You know, but, you know, it doesn't work on iPhone 8. You know, that may very well likely be just an incompatibility with, you know, the, the changing nature of how that software and hardware can, can kind of interact.

So there is a point at which I think it becomes reasonable to say, that's not, you might not explicitly stated, but that older version is not supported or tested for. And from my perspective, that's, that's acceptable. But typically you'd want to aim for current versions and then maybe going back, 1 or 2, if possible.

That's not always possible. And if it's not, then I would recommend you stick with the latest version when possible.

Mark Shapiro

What responsibility should the vendor take if we're sued for digital accessibility violations? Travis, you want to take this?

Travis Franklin

Yeah, absolutely. You know, an accessibility conformance report, typically in like, a VPAT format is a common way to document accessibility conformance. And that's what we do to provide, you know, we offer our clients. It's usually great to host these documents and website accessibility statements or to otherwise showcase your efforts to be accessible. There are a lot of great proactive steps that can be taken, that really reduce the risks and show that progress.

Mark Shapiro

Okay. Next question. Aren't all websites automatIcally designed responsive for tablets and phones nowadays? Casey?

Casey Naiduk

No. So they should be. It would be a highly recommended development and design practice to prioritize and make sure that you're always building responsive websites, so that when they are used on other devices, like, like a tablet or phone or frankly, even on a desktop or laptop, when you zoom in or if you resize your window, when you build it to be responsive, right, instead of some, you know, horrible horizontal scrolls or something, things start to stack and, and work nicely together.

But that that does not happen automatically. I still see to this day, many adaptive or sometimes desktop only sites being built. So, so no, it does not happen automatically. There's a ton of benefit to it though. And, you know, the least of which is not less code to build and maintain, you know, on the company's end. But, no, it does not happen automatically.

Mark Shapiro

How does the kiosk differ from a mobile application? Casey?

Casey Naiduk

Well, a lot of times, depending on and kiosk can mean a couple different things, but depending on how we use the term kiosk. A lot of times the biggest difference from my perspective is that, you know, on somebody's personal device, they've got the ability to use customization options or the assistive technology options that are typically available to them and that they're comfortable with.

Whether that be a screen reader. Whether that be, you know, the ability to, you know, magnify or change the contrast of text, those kinds of things. At a kiosk, you're just a person showing up. And so you may not have those options. You may have your own headphones, you know, for example, which, you know, which might be helpful for utilizing the headphone jack, assuming that the kiosk has one, which it should.

But the biggest difference that I see is that you're at the mercy of that kiosk, that or the other kiosk vendor, to have kind of done the preemptive work to say somebody might need the ability to use a screen reader, have that built in, have that available, have that findable. Somebody might need the ability to magnify or change the contrast of text or interface. Have that available. Have that findable.

Right? So, I see that as some of the biggest differences.

Mark Shapiro

Okay, great. That's all the time we have for, questions today. Casey Travis, thank you for your time today. Really appreciate the information.

Casey Naiduk

Thanks for having me.

Lori Litz

Thank you. Travis, Casey and Mark, for today's information on accessibility services for mobile apps and kiosks. After today's event, you can head on out to the lobby and head to the Expo hall, and you can visit QualityLogic's booth to learn more about the services that they offer. Today's event is recorded and will be available later this evening for on demand viewing. You will receive an email from me when that is available, and instructions on how to access it. We thank you so much for your time today, and we invite you back on June 11th when we take a look at Accessibility Software Testing Platforms. Those are the vendors that provide auditing platforms for your digital accessibility business needs.

So head on out to our event page and register for that event on June 11th. And June 26th, we’ll have Building and Remediating Accessible Websites. So that's about how to choose the right provider for building and remediating your website, making it accessible. We hope to have you back to those two events as well. Those also will be available on demand if you can't make it to the live session.

Thank you again everyone for being here today. I hope you have a great rest of your day.